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Edited Transcript of 2360.TW earnings conference call or presentation 30-Jul-20 9:00am GMT

·33 min de lecture

Q2 2020 Chroma ATE Inc Earnings Call Taoyuan Hsien Jul 31, 2020 (Thomson StreetEvents) -- Edited Transcript of Chroma ATE Inc earnings conference call or presentation Thursday, July 30, 2020 at 9:00:00am GMT TEXT version of Transcript ================================================================================ Corporate Participants ================================================================================ * Jui-Ying Chieng Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center * Paul Ying Chroma ATE Inc. - VP of Finance & Administration Center ================================================================================ Conference Call Participants ================================================================================ * Jeffrey Ohlweiler Macquarie Research - Asia Technology Hardware Analyst * S. H. Lin HSBC, Research Division - Associate of Technology Equity Research * William Chen ================================================================================ Presentation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Operator [1] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome, everyone, to Chroma's 2020 Second Quarter Earnings Conference Call. (Operator Instructions) For your information, a webcast replay will be available within an hour after the conference is finished. Please visit www.chroma.com.tw/investor/index under the Investor Relations section. And now I would like to introduce the CFO, Paul Ying. Mr. Ying, please begin. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Ying, Chroma ATE Inc. - VP of Finance & Administration Center [2] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you, Jason. This is Paul Ying and Jennifer from Chroma. Thanks for your participation of this second quarter of 2020, our financial results release. Well, 2020 second quarter, the sales revenue of parent company reached at [TWD 2.313 billion]. This is Q-over-Q, 13% up and 14% up on a Y-o-Y basis. And the gross margin of the second quarter of 2020 is approached at 52%. And operating margin reached at 25%. Our net income, the final outcome is the TWD 584 million, and this is Q-over-Q, 24% up and another 23% up by Y-o-Y basis. For the second quarter highlights, the major growth in this quarter is contributed from the semiconductor and photonics sectors. This represent a growth of 21% on a Q-over-Q basis and 43% growth on a Y-o-Y basis. As to the summary of the second quarter, and we give the guidance for the year 2020 like the following. Our first half consolidated sales revenue reached at TWD 7.2 billion. And this represents a growth of 20% on a year-over-year basis. The parent company sales reached at TWD 4.4 billion. And this is reached -- represent a growth of 22% growth on a year-over-year base. And this is mainly contributed from the semiconductor and photonics testing solutions again, which increased 57% compared to the last year. As to the business outlook for 2020, and the first bullet point, we showed that this is a relatively development of the AIoT, combination of AI and IoT and increasing the application of higher performance chips, such as CPU or TPU sensors, RF connections, et cetera, which will be continuously driving the sales growth in semiconductor and photonics testing solutions, particularly from several areas. The first one would be the high reliability testing solutions. This is including a burning test and SLT system-level test and thermal control and temperature stimulation. And the second sector will be like the (inaudible)and the ToF testing for 3D sensing. Another one will be like the OFC stands for the Optical Fiber Communication testing. The other area will be the testing instrument and ATS for power testing solutions, launching new generations power electronics testing, which will enhance the power density and functional testing for using in green energy, including EV-related components, battery modules, battery pack and smart grid and 5G server-related power testing. So we still maintain a pretty good outlook at the third quarter. Well, again, third quarter is the traditional peak of the year for seasonality. Well, as to the fourth quarter, we still look at that. There probably some uncertainty like COVID-19 still stay there, and it seems that in some countries, still got very serious conditions. So that will be one of the uncertainty. The second uncertainty is regarding the elections in the United States Presidency. And the third one is the conflict between the China and the United States. Still -- well, led the economy in very unstable status. I think these are the uncertainties that we look at the fourth quarter. So we don't see anything that clear yet. Okay. So this is the outlook for the year 2020. And now open for questions. ================================================================================ Questions and Answers -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Operator [1] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Operator Instructions) And the first question is coming from Jeff Ohlweiler from Macquarie. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey Ohlweiler, Macquarie Research - Asia Technology Hardware Analyst [2] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Can you talk a little bit more about -- you said third quarter is normal peak season, and it looks like it's going to happen again this year. Can you maybe talk about the sequential momentum for ATS semi photonics, turnkey and then the other subsidiaries, anything that's particularly growing faster or slower than the rest of the company sequentially in the third quarter? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [3] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeff, this is Jennifer. Yes, I think our second quarter performance is still better than first quarter, and we actually expecting the third quarter will be better than second quarter. And I think this year, we probably will enjoy, so-called this is (inaudible) pattern, which the third quarter will be the peak. And major delivery in the third quarter is -- #1 is mostly comes from the SLT testers delivered. And then we do have at least 1 turnkey project, which is for (inaudible) to deliver in third quarter. And our -- I think our answer, I wouldn't say, I'm sorry, we need to keep an eye on the fourth quarter due to the U.S. election, and also the U.S. and China tensions. So maybe, so far, we have some -- a little bit concerned about fourth quarter. But third quarter, our order delivery is pretty much on track. And we ever, okay, back to the product sector, so we ever guide that our semiconductor photonics sectors. Last year, we present a 20% growth rate. And this year, we probably will enjoy a similar growth rate. So far, based on hold on hand should be better than we guided 20%. And first half, actually, we delivered more in the photonic sectors versus IC test or like SLT testers. But the second half SLT will be better than photonics sectors. ATS so far is not very much changed. I think they will present another year of stable growth. And then Turnkey, hopefully, if we do have 2 Turnkey Solution project 1 with down take already. And we hopefully to have a similar sales last year. If there is not much changes here. And this is so far we could guide about our target. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey Ohlweiler, Macquarie Research - Asia Technology Hardware Analyst [4] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay. Great. And I guess, maybe another follow-up question. On the Photonics side, if you look at VCSEL ToF and the OFC testers, I mean how different technology or products are for those three? And is there much -- are we seeing any competition in those areas at this point? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [5] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You need the VCSEL comparisons? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey Ohlweiler, Macquarie Research - Asia Technology Hardware Analyst [6] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. Well, I guess, if I look at Photonics, (inaudible) VCSEL, ToF and OFC, and I'm just curious, one, is there much difference in the testers for those 3 products? Are they very similar in terms of technology? And... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [7] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay. Yes, so OFC is different to the VCSEL because VCSEL is only the -- just ToF, okay? And we highlight also 3D is because recently we received these U.S. customers' next-generation of products with a different design of ToF. So I would say -- this is for iPhone. So they are developing another products. And optical fiber one is e-wafer casters. So yes, there are different models. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey Ohlweiler, Macquarie Research - Asia Technology Hardware Analyst [8] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay. And then -- so last question, kind of related. So are there -- are you seeing any competitors for you -- anything in the Photonics area at this point? Or you still essentially dominate that space? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [9] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We're pretty much dominated, especially for the Guardian nitrate applications because entry accounts, they are expecting to redesign their ToF. So since we cover most of the iOS and the ER wafer testers. So you can say, we pretty much dominate market so far. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey Ohlweiler, Macquarie Research - Asia Technology Hardware Analyst [10] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay. Great. And I guess, one last question before I jump the line -- jump back in the line is SLT, I know historically, a lot of those sales have been for auto-related ICs. Going forward, can you talk a little bit more where are you specifically seeing MRT growth for Chroma specificall and SLT? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [11] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Actually, SLT application, you can simply break down to 2 large factors. I mean, 3 large factors. First one is for mobile, which is a mostly related volume. The reason for that is because, as you may notice, the 5G mobile -- because we move on to 5G due to complexity and the integrated designs, which is why we need more demand for these SLT testers. We believe this is the market where the Advantest and Teradyne is focused on because of volume. So they can bring out the pretests price because they're having a lot of number of testing. And second one is niche markets. Anything you considered about HPC market. So HPC because you're looking forward, what your target is 0 defect. So you have to -- you have to using SLT. But the issue for a niche market, including like GPU, single sensors, (inaudible) chips and auto, waters, they first think they couldn't be consistent in size, okay? They will come with different sizes, different pin comms, different solutions, largely the (inaudible) of design. So this is where the raw matters -- it should wait for the market, okay? Currently, we have the biggest portion of market share for the niche market parts. And then as you may notice from the TSMC, the guidance, the HVC obligation will gradually increase. And this is where we benefit from HPC market. And last one on CPU. CPU will -- you fit into CPU. These type of products. The design of the tasks tend to be elastic. So which cannot be really fit into first 2 markets, which is no fastener over and upgrade effect. This kind of casters design. So far, it's only AEM, which is being supported to Intel's-only. But sometimes we will be close to line, for example, sometimes we're selling our thermal temperature submission to the CPU to intel for testing their auto CPU. And sometimes, we're also selling some of the casters, which is cover for mobile, 5G mobile chip because they need to isolate this kind of 5G signal to complete the testing. So we do SLT 5 or 6 years earlier ahead of market. So if you want to talk about applications, the design phase. We have patents. We have much more special technology compared to the other competitors. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Operator [12] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And the next question is coming from Angus Lin of HSBC. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S. H. Lin, HSBC, Research Division - Associate of Technology Equity Research [13] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So I wonder, you had a gross margin fall off in second quarter, despite your mix on is actually growing pretty strong. So can give us some color around the gross margin movement in second quarter and maybe going into maybe second half, the directional wise? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [14] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your question is based on the gross margin, right? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S. H. Lin, HSBC, Research Division - Associate of Technology Equity Research [15] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, in 2Q or outlook? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [16] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. Gross margin, we see pretty much target on 50% to 55.0%. And I would say, it's not really second quarter that enroll margins. First quarter, I think, because we delivered large number of 5G tower server related high-power testing. As you know, we have pretty good strength in the high-power testing. So maybe this could be a reason why gross margin is around 55%. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Ying, Chroma ATE Inc. - VP of Finance & Administration Center [17] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's still the product mix. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [18] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. In the second quarter, I checked the numbers. I think mostly come from the -- some of Photonics and semi SLT. I don't think SLT is really picking up in the second quarter. I think it's just based on some our mix from the semiconductor sectors, I would say, yes. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Ying, Chroma ATE Inc. - VP of Finance & Administration Center [19] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So as long as it's over 50%, it seems healthy to the management. Yes, maintaining 52, 53, I think it's quite normal. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [20] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I pretty much agree with you because that third quarter, if we deliver the back to sale order, maybe gross margin will be not very much different compared to the second quarter. Because for July, most July and August, I would say, mostly SLT. And August and September, we will have back to sale holders. So maybe blend everything together, still able to cover 50%? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S. H. Lin, HSBC, Research Division - Associate of Technology Equity Research [21] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I see. Because the reason why I asked this is because I think traditionally, your testing instrument business gross margin is higher than Turnkey. And I don't know if you have any comments, gross margin is higher or below test instruments. I see your semi-conductor photonics are actually going pretty strong in 2Q. But you are coming off from 1Q to 2Q with gross margin dip. And now with 3Q coming in with Turnkey projects thickening, and no longer end little bit if you know the test instrument actually continues to be stable. So no longer maybe gross margin -- though you are going -- your top line will still grow for the quarter to see profit. So gross margin from this might be some pressure despite growing top line, right? Directionalized, I guess? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [22] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, because the Turnkey is a blended gross margin. Sometimes, should they -- there's no way ever project can enjoy effects with the 50% gross margin. But if you -- when we review what we're going to deliver in third quarter, blend semiconductor factors and then plus -- I mean, Turnkey together. I think as far as we're able to over 50%, still pretty much in line with the corporate average. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S. H. Lin, HSBC, Research Division - Associate of Technology Equity Research [23] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I see. Okay. And my second question is with regard to your MAS. The run rate now seems to be below TWD 1 billion for this year. Can you help us give some color about what's going on in MAS segment now? And is the current run rate of MAS needs to proceed through this year and maybe even going into next year? Yes. Just some color around MAS, how we should think about... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Ying, Chroma ATE Inc. - VP of Finance & Administration Center [24] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Going to next year will be a little bit too far. But for this year, I would assume that the expected -- that the MAS will perform pretty much last year, first half and while maintaining the ordinary business of MAS. I think mainly is -- on the market at the -- in China. And looking at the panel and solar cell and also some other kind of mechatronics kind of mechanical design and end product. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Operator [25] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Operator Instructions) The next question is coming from Will Chen of JPMorgan Asset Management. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Chen, [26] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul, three questions from my side if possible. The first 1 is also related to the gross margin. So if we look at more historical longer-term trend, the gross margin for our parent testing business actually decline from 45 -- 54% in 2014 to already -- to around 50% in 2019, right? So I understand that you mentioned 50% is actually a pretty good margin. And I also agree that. But just understanding that because you mentioned there's an increase in power ARPU sort of -- or the testing should be at high margins. So I think if I look at past few years, that should be the case, but just wondering why the margin trend over the past has been in a decline trend. This trend is strong (inaudible) at this. That's the first question. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [27] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You mean your gross margin -- the question is related to consolidate, right? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Chen, [28] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, the parent testing, parent testing. Not consolidate. Parent testing. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [29] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Parent testing, the gross margin. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Ying, Chroma ATE Inc. - VP of Finance & Administration Center [30] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You never to (inaudible)... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Chen, [31] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. Can you (inaudible) 55% level to about 50%. The (inaudible)is still pretty strong. Just wondering, over the past 4, 5 years, despite the rising power output, mentioned of how high-power testing should be higher margin. Is that a -- why the margin for the overall payment company show a decline for all the testing for 5 years? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [32] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Our corporate gross margin target is always long to maintain around 50%, okay? And then honestly, the gross margin stream is sometimes, it should mostly come from the customers' design. Sometimes, we want to gain some order and the customers will like us besides these order, they want us to help them to integrate some of the tours into the testers. And this is some kind of, I can say, value-added where extra servers to our customers. And in this case, customers notice those integration has come from their requests, then it's high not possible to just raise out the gross margin because this is additional services. And maybe 3 or 5 years, we do a lot of cases. Going forward, will be the same situation. We're going to (technical difficulty) -- sorry, direct design to those large companies. So those strong companies. So we cannot say the discount situation will not happen again. Obviously, this do happen in some of the VCSEL cases and some of the SLT cases. And sometimes gross margin could not be stick with always 55%, even we grant this technology as first one or first adopters. But sometimes, we will do extra service, helping customers to integrate some of tours just to meet the customer satisfaction and create a (technical difficulty). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Chen, [33] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you have any like sectors that you are seeing facing margin -- more margin pressure? It is more is that more correlated to the test instrument or a semiconductor one? Because I think Turnkey, there has been in a decline trend, right? So I think for key contributor will be interested and then also Photonics. So do you see any specific that face this margin headwind because of the design complexity, you mentioned on the extra design? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [34] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay. I wouldn't say it's a gross margin pressure. Because this, I would say, this is product nature. Because if you look at Turnkey, you bring a lot of different automation phases. Of course, gross margin blended. So for project, this is kind of nature. The whole -- you look at the project gross margin, you don't look at individual testers gross margins. So I would say Turnkey project is a blended gross margin. But if you -- for cases that just mentioned (technical difficulty) provide extra service or extra integration, this is only happen through the semiconductor. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Chen, [35] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I see, I see. Okay. Very clear. Second question is. Okay. Second question is related to the semi testing you mentioned. So in the first half, your run rate is actually close to -- your first run rate is actually close to 50% growth. You mentioned that your target of this year will be 5%, and there will be sort of upside potential. So for the second half, you mentioned (inaudible). But how about other run rate growth compared to first half? Are we seeing a similar growth rate versus the first half? Or will probably see a slowdown of the run rate? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [36] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First half gross margin (technical difficulty) not the 50%. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Chen, [37] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, I mean, the growth rate. I mean the growth rate, the sales growth rate? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [38] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sales growth rate. Okay. I will tell you second half sales will be better than first half. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Chen, [39] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For Semi and Photonics? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [40] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Semi and Photonics. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Chen, [41] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (inaudible) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [42] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last time, we guided this similar growth rate as last year, 20%. So last year, TWD 2.3 billion. Now, we forecast will be better than 20% growth rate. So you can use last year numbers at times more than 20% growth rate. 20-something -- something growth rate. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Chen, [43] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Right. Did I use imply the second half growth rate for Semi and Photonics? We probably in voting, right, like the team level (inaudible) low-digit level. Is that you imply growth rate for Semi and Photonics in the second half? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [44] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You mean because the first half, we all had TWD 1.5 billion. So maybe it should be less than TWD 1.5 billion. Is it what you mean, right? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Chen, [45] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. So I just wondering if (inaudible) right? I'm just wondering because those have to grow already 57%, close to 60% of the growth rate, right? So if you -- by even 30% growth that, that actually your second half would will be slow down to about 15% that year. But still pretty strong. Is that the case? I'm just wondering the direction. Unless there are probably some projects (inaudible) probably expectation. But just wondering, is that the trend we are looking for? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [46] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well our SLT and Photonics, these 2 factors numbers, first half, second half. If you add SLT and Photonics together first half and second half is not very much changed. So I need to double check with our workforce (inaudible). How they (technical difficulty). Maybe not too far from the first half, but anyway, this is the best we could say. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Chen, [47] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So not be very strong though that will be way beyond the seeing (inaudible) growth. Okay. That's it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [48] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Photonics (inaudible) order already for (inaudible). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Chen, [49] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay. That's very clear. Last question, if it's possible. Regarding to the Test Instruments and ATS because at the second quarter, we see a year-on-year decline about flattish sales in the third quarter. Can you elaborate a bit why constant (inaudible) of the flattish? Is it because of EVO because of any other segment that caused that flattish sales? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [50] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Flattish for ATS quarter-on-quarter. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Chen, [51] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [52] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, because I think we do (inaudible) capacity operations because actually, our second quarter mostly capacity need to prepare for schedule for Photonics and then the SLT sectors, actually, we don't deliver all the products in 1 quarter. Sometimes, we need to allocate some resources between semiconductor factors and ATS. So you can say from my numbers, I would say, second quarter, the major deliveries supposed to be Photonics related. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Chen, [53] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So it's not an end demand issue, right? I mean for ATS and test instruments in the second quarter, it was not because of a demand issue. It's more like the internal resource allocation? So how the demand would happen in the second half? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [54] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. I would say if you look -- the best way to look at ATS is look at it today. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Operator [55] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Operator Instructions) And the next question is coming from Angus Lin of HSBC. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S. H. Lin, HSBC, Research Division - Associate of Technology Equity Research [56] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think in the year 2020 outlook page, you said that you are going to launch a new power testing equipment for EV power, migrate and 5G server. Sorry, I know you guys probably mentioned this in prepared remarks, but I dialed in later, so probably I missed this. So I'm wondering from this, is there going to be a strong second half Test Instrument segment driver? Because you mentioned that first half you have like capacity constraints, so you guys allocate more to like Semi, Photonics. So Test Instruments was a bit weak in 2Q. But from your launching new equipment to like EV power testing part, are you seeing the Test Instruments to pick up in second half from first half? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [57] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think overall, this year, ATM is the maintain just a stable growth. I am expecting like over 10% growth this year. Well, this is a pretty much a very conservative view because we -- as I mentioned in the beginning, we do have some concern in the fourth quarter because of the election, also the Chinese and U.S. tensions. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S. H. Lin, HSBC, Research Division - Associate of Technology Equity Research [58] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay. So I think I move to like a longer-term question is just near-term dynamics. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [59] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S. H. Lin, HSBC, Research Division - Associate of Technology Equity Research [60] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So I think you guys have a very, very solid growth this year, potentially for Semi and Photonics. And if you look into next year, maybe we're not going to talk about maybe the (inaudible) or whatever help is. But next year, are you going to foresee any reacceleration or even a deceleration for your 3 segments -- 3 parent segment business? Like for me, it's like you have Photonics especially app pretty much ramping in the past 9 months already with SLT to kind of catch-up the momentum from this year going through the year-end. I'm wondering going to next year, what would be some drivers that you see would actually persist or being much stronger? Yes (inaudible). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [61] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So we ever guide in the beginning of the year, IC is a major role for this year, which is still -- we pretty much deliver for what we guide in the beginning of the year. The saying SLT are the biggest growth drivers and then follow-up by the Photonics like ER, wafer testers. And we ever give a guidance regarding to next 3 years, we're expecting our Semiconductor combined with Photonic sectors altogether, we'll be close to 50% of Test Instruments business. So this -- despite there will be no decline from the ATS, which is power testing. So in this case, power -- sorry, Semiconductor sector need to maintain certain types of growth rate for coming next 3 years' time. We see the drivers actually come from HPC market, applications continue to increase, which has led to increasing demand for SLT. And especially this year as we launched this product. The reason why we gained so much order for the SLT this year is because we launched some of the -- this is kind of very flexible design for SLT to increase throughput for the SLT for testing the niche product like GPU, AI forces chips and even cover -- start to cover CMO (inaudible). And we do start -- we see some other applications, for example, like wallet, (inaudible) and skywards also interest to try out our new testers because (inaudible) stimulations and then also the site, is the maximized numbers in the market. And so we do see the continued increased demand for these occasions for the SLT market, which has also led to increase the demand for SLT. And I really think our design is very competitive. Second is (inaudible) application, which is we already mentioned like a ToF. I think going forward, several -- I think, a couple of new products that customers pass on to design, mostly related to (inaudible). so you will see more applications from (inaudible) designs. Besides the OR wafer, here, I think this is a volume driven. I think after this kind of attention being settled, I think 5G will continue to divulge. I think we still continue to see the demand for the ER water casters. So we do have a very -- too much concern about the EO demand. And the VCSEL, we are pretty much on the right trend. Not only this generation, the (inaudible)1 ... We also got another 2 designs with the ToF. Okay. I see. So I think, we do have -- I wouldn't say, like super hard to predict. I wouldn't say like 100% sure, but we already pretty much -- I think (inaudible) conducted development, and we are pretty much on the right track. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Operator [62] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Operator Instructions) And the next question is coming from Will Chen of JPMorgan Asset Management. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Chen, [63] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry, just 1 question. You mentioned that LTE test demand is pretty strong. And then you also commented a bit in the 3 market, right? So just wondering, like, can you just share like SLT, the percentage of Semi and Photonics testing? Like how much that accounts for ourselves in 2019. And then you mentioned the 3 segments for SLT. (inaudible) question the niche market. I mentioned you sit like what's the proportion? I mean for SLT margin, can you break a bit like mobile or niche markets, if you -- what's the size of each market or the percentage of size of niche market and how compete in each market. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [64] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay. Last year, we generated the total semiconductor for Photonics sectors TWD 1.23 billion. And TWD 1 billion of that is Photonics related. And I can say, I only could say like over -- last year, I think over 50% come from year wafer. So you can see the 5G pretty much speed up. And this year, yes, I would say -- let me calculate. First half, I think IC testers versus Photonics, I would say pretty much even, pretty much even. And then EO is still more than VCSEL. This is -- because let me brief a little bit because for public sector, the first quarter, we mostly delivered to Androids, but Androids after seeing the iOS launch are deciding to redesign ERF. So the second quarter when we did deliver Photonics, VCSEL mostly to IOS. However, for Photonics sector, most of it still come from, I would say, (inaudible). Remaining IC testers, I think -- SLT so start to pick up from second quarter, but I don't think I will give a precise number for SLT sales contribution. But we do every comments SLT this year will be reached the first step of milestone to over 1 billion of sales. So second half will be a little SLT customer, second half will be more than first half. So what -- or what is the second question? I just missed it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Chen, [65] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So you mentioned the 3 end markets, mobile, niche market and (inaudible). What's the proportion (inaudible) that (inaudible) in the (inaudible) managed market. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [66] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Three years ago, we passively gave out our 4G mobile because we don't have time to deliver to more sites. Because we were homegrown as a big part (technical difficulty) SLT makers. And that time, I already gave to Teradyne. Remember, Teradyne (inaudible). This is the first time expecting to mobile. The reason they can grant that order and selling for USD 2.5 million is because they can design a tray, which is biggest numbers of mobile. (inaudible) very small. (inaudible) business model. And moving on to 5G this year. And we start to get into 5G markets because some of the niche testing methods they cover. So maybe reason we do receive several for MediaTek, Qualcomm prefer some of our testers, I mean SLT testers, maybe single function or multifunction. The reason for that is because we are -- we're able to design good feature with a better, very competitive price. In a way, we're able to design sot price range very big from 200,000 to 2 million. But this kind of recorded scale cannot get into, okay, let's talk about Glisco. This kind of business model cannot fit into niche market, which is a big number-- big sized chip markets. Because the chips cannot be modulized. I mean tester cannot be mobilized. chips cannot be standardized. And then how would you -- for this kind of big size, how could you trading as big standard as possible? If everyone trades pretty much defense, more possible, how would this selling a trade, which is only confiding for like 16 dyes and you want to sell for 2 million, and we only sell 200,000. So not possible, right? So also, not to talk about -- okay, for the niche market, which is the HPC market, you need to have special technique. For example, if it's over 1, no matter you are talking about wireless, AI to ship, auto, you compress for, you need to compress the chips with, of course, over 100 kt to 300 kt. So you able to lease-up with the (inaudible) to do testing. If you could have reach this kind of force rate, you can't -- you cannot connect. Okay. When you connect, the tension gets really high, sometimes over 90 degrees, all the pink will start to melt. you Couldn't do thermal control. So to test the niche market, having several special techniques. So it's not simply use economy or it just compete with price. So that's why I mentioned in the beginning, if you want to cover niche market, you need to have a capability to do vacuum that design for all different type of chips. So I serve GPU are (inaudible) AI forces (inaudible) a deal with the same account, which is (inaudible). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Chen, [67] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think because (inaudible), I also mentioned the SLT development was pretty strong. And I think that's strong -- the strongest is actually mainly from the volume or the mobile business side. Like the case the DRAM (inaudible). Remember you have (inaudible) SLT strength (inaudible)... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jui-Ying Chieng, Chroma ATE Inc. - Director of Investor Relation & Corporate Investment and Finance & Administration Center [68] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, you don't need SLT. You really don't need SLT. SLT designs because the (inaudible) chip. For this kind of standard model, you apparently don't need SLT. And then only grading the mobile market can fit into the business model. If you look at their business model, they at least need to sell catch over 2 million. If you -- you don't talk, just quote check in Teradyne, all the test is solving over 2 million. Well, I think the biggest threat for Teradyne is Advantest because they do have the key design. Going forward, you look at 5G market, what is really a key. First one, burning system. Second one, (inaudible). This is -- we all have (inaudible) we all have had for many, many years. But Teradyne, they don't have these key burning and thermal control and why is that -- because if you look at5 G markets, it's all high-power consumption, you definitely earning. 3 years ago, have you ever heard any chip need to have burning, no, nothing. But now most of the 5G-related chips not just only for HBC, including mobile, probably all need to have a burning process because it's all 5G is all about power consumption. And if you also want to step into Photonics related that you need to have still about thermal control and (inaudible) because in order to gain comfort saving market, temperature is a key. So so far, advance test -- you look at their sales, mostly is a consolidated self from the company they acquired. They haven't really elaborated or integrate those features in (inaudible). Most of the Chroma testers is all integrated for the company we acquire. So we consolidate it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Operator [69] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for all your questions. There are currently no questions. Then now hand it over to the CFO, Paul Ying, for closing remarks. Mr. Ying, please proceed. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Ying, Chroma ATE Inc. - VP of Finance & Administration Center [70] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, thanks, everyone. It seems to ask that we have a pretty good second quarter and first half. Then we are waiting for the next half and let's move forward. Thank you, and bye-bye. Until next time. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Operator [71] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you, Mr. Ying. And ladies and gentlemen, we thank you for your participation in Chroma's conference. There will be a webcast replay within an hour. Please visit www.chroma.com.tw/investor/index under the Investor Relations section. You may now disconnect. Goodbye.